Vehicle preparation/conditioning archivos - JG Classics : The thrill of time travel

My classic car leaks oil (part ii)

Javier Guevara Vico — Fri, 23 Dec 2022 03:15:19 +0000

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My classic car leaks oil (ii): Solutions

What do I do with my oil leak?

Oil leaks are one of the usual headaches for classic car owners because the reasons that I mentioned in the previous post. previous post.

If you haven’t read it yet, you can have a look:

Mi coche clásico pierde aceite (i)

Initial Consideration: Important

I specified it in the first part of this article, but I consider it essential to insist here as well: I am talking about external and slight losses, which in many cases of old cars, are inherent to the design of the vehicle itself. Only those types of losses and no others. Large leaks, or internal leaks due to lack of sealing of rings, cylinders, pistons, problems in valve seals, cylinder head gasket and any leak that compromises the proper functioning of the engine, this is ANOTHER THING and if they happen, it requires intervention in the engine by a qualified professional.

Additionally: Attention to the crankcase gas vent.

Many oil “leakage” problems can come from engine breather problems. Especially prone to happen in engines that are several tens of years old. I invite you to additionally see this article where I talk about the problem and share with you our own experience. .

If I’m at the point where I can’t avoid oil loss, but it’s clear to me that oil loss is not a problem, or even more, it’s part of the native design of my car, why not simply go for a permanent built-in-car device to pick it up for me instead of having to resort to trays, mats and other external resources placed on the floor?

In fact, this idea is not a “sudden” invention of mine: One day, while changing the oil in a last generation BMW (actually, now it’s a pre-last generation -it’s an F30-) I realized that the fairing that completely covers the underbody of the car is -among other things- a perfect barrier for any -small- liquid leakage. It is true that this fairing is there to cover some other functionalities, both mechanical protection of the elements and aerodynamic – to avoid swirls and air turbulence in the underbody of the vehicle. But e fact is that if that vehicle had a small oil leak, the fairing would totally prevent that oil from rushing to the outside.

Standard solutions

On new cars: Here you can see the underbody fairing on a new generation BMW.

Regardless of its function, it is clear that it will act as a barrier against any small leakage, preventing it from generating a source of contamination outside the vehicle.

For antique cars: This stainless steel part is a current market standard sold in the United States. Versions for MG and Ford engines are available.

It’s -obviously- not an underbody fairing, but it does what it’s designed to do: collect the oil that goes out from the rear of the crankshaft and drains through the gearbox bellhousing.

Creation/installation of an oil pan

This is precisely what we have done with two of our cars. Both the MGA and the Renault 4CV suffer from this circumstance. They both drip/ooze/sweat (use whatever euphemism you prefer) oil.

In the case of the MGA I am 100% sure that there is no ring seal at the rear output of the crankshaft. On the Renault 4CV, I’m honestly not sure because there were several production series of that engine in those years. In the case of ours, it is the second version of the 1950 Renault Ventoux engine, and it is possible that it does not have a seal at the crankshaft pulley outlet. In any case, even if I carries it, and I can replace it later, at this time I prefer to ensure the total absence of oil drips.

In our case, we have created the tray from ordinary 0.6 mm steel sheet. It is not a very thick one, but it has the advantage of being very workable. It can be easily bent, cut, drilled and shaped.

Structure of the oil pan

To give it rigidity, we have reinforced it with ribs made of aluminum profile and fastened with rivets. This will void you to have to weld in case you don’t have welding equipment or simply don’t know how to weld (welding in a “clean” way over a steel sheet without piercing it requires some experience):

We have chosen ordinary steel and not stainless steel for ease of painting. In our case, we wanted to install a tray that would be aesthetically integrated as much as possible with the underbody of the car and would not be an element too “visible”.

Painting

For the painting, we have given a coat of primer “Beissier todo terreno” black color (it is water-based, and has a very high adhesion power on any material, in another article I will talk about usable paints). This is from Spain, but fr sure you will find something similar in your country/area. I strongly recommend that you apply a coat of primer because if you use aluminum profiles in the assembly, the direct paint does not adhere very well on this material.

Then we applied satin black polyurethane lacquer. Titanlak from Titan, although it is a “domestic” range paint, has an excellent quality, and if left to dry for the right time (it takes at least 4 days to reach maximum hardness) it is extremely resistant.(again, your local dealers in your country will be able to provide you similar paint type if you want to use it)

Applying the paint with an airbrush, will provide you an excellent result, which is completely integrated in the underbody of the vehicle.

Final structure and foam to retain drained oil

Around the area where the oil “falls” into the tray, you can see that we have built an angled aluminum profile frame (1 cm x 1 cm): With this we achieve two things:

The tray acquires rigidity (as already mentioned).
We have created a frame in which we will house a foam sheet or any absorbent material.

This foam is replaceable, so that after a while, simply unscrew the tray, remove the stained foam, take it to a clean recycling point for oil residues – please do not throw it in the domestic waste – and replace it with a new one. Since the temperature of the oil falling in this zone is relatively low (no more than the temperature of domestic hot water), this foam more than fulfills its purpose.

Final installation

Once installed in the vehicle, we can see that it is perfectly integrated in the underbody, fulfilling its task and preventing any drop of oil from falling to the ground.

Maintenance is very simple. the tray is fastened with four screws (two on each “wing” of the tray). From time to time (e.g. every oil change) it is very easy to disassemble the tray, remove the foam, dispose of it at a clean recycling point, and replace it with a new one.

Renault 4CV Tray - Phases and details

Here you can see a small photo gallery with the different phases of the manufacture of the tray oil pan of the Renault 4CV. These are just a few images, but I hope they give you enough ideas to get you started if you want to do something similar. I also give you some details that I think may help you:

The paint, as I said, is applied with an airbrush. The primer is water-based, while the lacquer is solvent-based. You don’t need an expensive airbrush, but much better a good air compressor that gives you a sufficient flow for your paint airbrush. In any case, it is not “so critical” painting task. But if you apply it with an airbrush, the result will be much better. Alternatively you can use a spray, but sprays are expensive and generally use more paint than necessary.
To cut the iron sheet, you can use one of those miter saws that carpenters carry when they go to assemble doors in a house. Although they are made for wood, there exists in the market the so-called “multi-material disc” that fits these saws, with which you can cut iron and aluminum sheet (I discovered it recently and I was amazed at the good results with metal). The straight cuts are perfect, the miters are 45 degrees, the squares measure exactly 90 degrees, you can make symmetrical oblique cuts at the angle you need, etc, etc, etc. Nothing to do with hand or jigsaw made cuts. Miter saws are available in many price ranges, but you don’t need a 600 euro miter saw. If you decide to buy one, I do recommend that it has longitudinal displacement: the possibilities of use grow exponentially (they are also called “telescopic miter saws”).
Working with iron parts and machines: That’s a combination to be respected. Please, always anchor the pieces very well with suitable jacks or clamps, and do not rely on your hands to hold them while they go through the drill, the polisher, and much less through the saw. A piece of metal flying off can be the cause of a very serious accident – I don’t even want to imagine a direct accident caused by a saw with the power of a miter saw. My personal advice: invest time and resources securing the work environment and work on the premise of “zero risk”.
Bad riveting machines are major time wasters. The ones with a certain quality are not very expensive, and are well worth it. I would say, run away from these“riveter+kit 300 rivets for 12 euros” promos.
Should you have someting else that you would like to know or any other details you would like to see, please feel free to write me in the comments or contact us directly and we will be happy to help you.

Click on the images to see the comments

Other examples of users who made similar things

I give you some references of owners who have adopted this solution on classic cars: These are for MGA from UK and USA users.

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/cs212.htm

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/cs213.htm

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/cs214.htm

Oil pan on our MGA (engine and transmission)

Here you can see what we did in our MGA: In this job, oil collection has been extended all the way along the driveshaft. In this car the driveshaft is uncovered, so that in addition to safeguarding the oil drip, we provide protection against dust, or blows from stones or foreign objects. Here the tray is painted in black and red, matching the color of the car’s underbody and the color of the MGA engine oil sump.

Conclusion

As I told you, the idea to manufacture this small device came from three different sources:

The oil mat that I told you that some suppliers provide.
The noticing that all modern vehicles have the under-vehicle covered by a fairing, and therefore, small oil drips are retained by the fairing and avoid staining the environment (besides other functionalities that the fairing may have).
Works exposed in (among others) the links mentioned here above about an EGM.

Finally, I will insist once more on the point I mentioned at the beginning of this article: This proposal is only for small external oil leaks in which the elimination is not feasible due to the difficulty of obtaining spare parts/labor, or because the leak is inherent to the design of the engine (because it is very old and does not have oil retention elements). And above all, that it does not compromise the proper good working of the vehicle.

Still, if you are not really sure and have doubts, I advise you to have the car checked by a professional who will make a complete diagnosis and give you a proposed resolution adapted to your car. If you still want to share your situation with us, you can contact us and we will gladly give you our opinion, regardless of the solution you may finally decide to adopt.

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My classic car leaks oil (i)

JG Classics Administrator — Tue, 20 Dec 2022 17:37:13 +0000

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My classic leaks oil (i)

This is a situation as frequent as undesirable in classic cars (actually, in non-classic cars, when they are a certain number of years old, also). These oil leaks are called in several ways, with more or less degree of euphemism, but at the end of the day, they drive to the same thing:

Oil leak
Little oil drops
Oozing oil
Sweat oil
..

Initial consideration. Important:

Here I consider it important to precise something: I am talking about external and slight losses, which, in the case of many old cars, are inherent to the design of the vehicle itself. I am only talking about those types of losses and not other ones. Large leaks, or internal leaks due to problems of sealing around rings, cylinders, pistons, issues in valve seals, cylinder head gasket and any leak that compromises the proper functioning of the engine, this is ANOTHER THING and if these issues happen, it requires the intervention of a qualified professional.

Additionally: Attention to the crankcase gas vent.

These external oil leaks that I mention here – even if they are slight – have two consequences:

They are smearing wherever the car parks or passes by.
They can give you problems in the ITV (technical inspection cerification) at least in Spain.

The first consequence has a direct interpretation: we like classic cars and historic cars, we are passionate about automobiles. In general, we like mechanics and “tinkering”, but we don’t like to mess up or polluting the environment. No need to mention that industrial and automotive oils are one of the most polluting wastes that exist.

As for the second one, the problem is that it has an interpretable reading: In the MOT inspection, “oil leaks WITHOUT dripping” are a minor fault, but “oil leaks WITH dripping” is considered a major fault (at least in Spain) and generates an NON-PASSED INSPECTION. And the discussion lies precisely in what is understood as “drip” and what is understood as “non-drip”. In reality, any leakage of a fluid implies dripping (unless the fluid solidifies or gels spontaneously, but this is not the case with oil, at least not at the “ordinary” temperatures of our climate). So it’s all a matter of “how soon” the trickle down occurs. It is therefore at the discretion of the MOT technician to determine whether we are dealing with a “drip YES” or “drip NO”. And this, in the MOT inspection, in many occasions, is usually a source of debate/dispute or at least in an uncertainty about the result of the report.

What can I do to resolve this oil leak?

This is where the problem often comes: The MOT inspector technician will probably explain to you where the leak is coming from and you will probably hear a phrase such as “.you would have to change the seal/gasket of XYZ …” -this is usually most of cases-. And here, if you want to solve the problem, you can find yourself – in general – with several options, which finally will drive you to one of two possible situations: The replacement of the responsible part is feasible or not:

Situation 1: replacement of the sealing element (gasket, seal, plug, etc.) is feasible.

- First option: it is a gasket(external, I insist once again, I am NOT talking -for example- about a cylinder head gasket) and the replacement is feasible. A flat gasket, even if not commercially available, is easy to make, and in most cases is usually replaceable with reasonable effort. It is true that in some cases, such as the oil pan or sump gasket, it is usually necessary to lift the engine block because the front or rear axle (depending on the location of the engine block) prevents the sump from being removed. But in any case, we are talking about assumable effort.
- Second option: It’s a seal ring and you can change it with reasonable effort. Spare parts are available and labor is affordable in terms of time and effort. Some of them may require you to remove parts that generate more work, such as a crankshaft pulley, or a water pump that prevents you from getting to the oil seal, but again, we talk about something that can be addressed at a moderate cost.

Situation 2: The replacement of the sealing element is unaffordable or of an unaffordable cost.

- The oil seal replacement is not feasible, either for one of the following reasons:
  - Not available on the market
  - You cannot afford (economical labor cost effort) to change it.
  - It never existed: that model simply did not have a seal. It is not present in the original car design.

NOTE: What I have presented here so far is a generalization and obviously there may be many other particular cases, but the reality is that in most cases, the situation will be very similar to one of the ones described above.

I am in situation 1: I can replace the part at an affordable cost.

If you are lucky enough to be in situation 1, my advice is not to even think about it: Go for the direct replacement of the sealing element: No intermediate repairs, no “miracle” additives that promise to restore the sealing where there were leaks before. I have never seen anyone that worked.

If you replace the part, it is true that you will spend hours and/or money (more hours or more money depending on how much you do yourself or how much you ask a professional to do it), but it will have been an assured investment. If you also consider the fact that you are doing it with a classic car, and therefore the few kilometers it is likely to do per year, it will probably be the last time you replace that part. And the problem will belong to the past.

I am in situation 2: There is no sealing element in that part (or there is but it is not affordable for me).

You may also find that even if a replacement is available on the market, the cost of replacement is unaffordable for you at the time. These parts use to be inexpensive, usually costing no more than few euros/dollars/pounds/,.., but some of them may take maybe 10 hours of labor to be replaced (and may need special tools such as extractors, press, etc.).

And finally, it may be that your car simply does not have any kind of sealing element at the oil leak point. This situation happens in many older cars and for some types/brands: it’s a known situation. In the same way that many old vehicles (I am talking about 1960 backwards) did not have fuses in the electrical installation, they don’t also have any oil ring seals. They did not exist at that time when car was manufactured. So don’t look for them: there aren’t any.

Really? Isn't there any kind of seal ring?

Really. Many of the old cars did not have any at the output of the different shafts (crankshaft, cam, secondary shafts, etc.).

In reality, even when a seal ring exists as a engine part for many years and it may look simple, it’s not at all a simple element to manufacture or design.

A seal ring is a sealing element (let’s colloquially call it now a “gasket”), in the form of a ring (or sometimes a cylinder), which is installed in an orifice in a fluid-filled recipient, an orifice through which a moving part (a rotating shaft or an oscillating axe, as in the case of valves) “comes out”. And its mission, as the name suggests, is to “retain” or “seal” the fluid so that it does not escape. As the outgoing part moves (oscillates or rotates), this “gasket” must be elastic enough to allow the movement of the part (usually a shaft, as I said) but tight enough not to allow the fluid (usually oil) to escape to the outside.

In this link you will see a very didactic scheme. If you are not familiar with the technical details, I recommend that you watch it.

When desgined, the engineers balance between several circumstances to achieve their goal:

With the material (having the appropriate level of plasticity/elasticity).
With auxiliary adjustment elements (such as a small spring surrounding the rubber ring).
Shaped so that the “push” of the fluid that wants to escape “deforms” the part so that it fits, “tights” and insulates correctly.
They may also have splines in the inner wall of the ring that redirect the fluid to prevent it from escaping.

Seals and their manufacture: Although it is a cheap part -because they are manufactured in large quantities in a highly industrialized way-, their conception is not at all obvious or trivial. I show you a website of a manufacturer of oil seals, where explanations are given in great detail and very illustrative and didactic schemes: You can see this link (Sabó Retenes)

Retenes

At the time when there were no oil seals as we know them today, one of the oil retention systems in the axles of many old cars was a piece at the end of the axle, which had been machined a spiral, as if it were a drill: When rotating, the spirals tended to “pull back” the oil that “wanted to get out” by pressure. In other words, like a grinder that was forcing the oil to re-enter the inner area of the engine (or transmission): in the same way that the twist of a drill bit expels the drilled material “backwards”. In this link you can see the axis of an MGA with the twisted spiral that I mention. You can see it on the right side of the image. By the way, besides the image itself, and the observation of it, the article in the link is very interesting.

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/gearbox/gt201.htm

One of the costraints or inconvinients of these systems is that they operate only while the engine is rotating. But when the engine stops, this “turbine effect” stops and for a few moments some oil may fall outside, even if there is a cover or supplement to prevent this from happening. It is inherent in the design.

Drain holes: In many classic cars this behavior was so assumed that it is common to have some oil drain holes to prevent the oil from accumulating in some areas adjacent to the leak – where it could cause problems – and therefore ensure that the oil is completely drained to the outside. A typical example is the rear output of the crankshaft or the input of the primary shaft of the gearbox. If oil comes out of one of the two places – from the engine or the transmission – the last thing we want is that it accumulate inside the gearbox bellhousing, since the clutch is located there and if the clutch disc is stained with oil, clutch will no longer work and will remain unusable. Therefore, oil must never be accumulated inside the unit so imperatively needs to be evacuated.

Here you can see it in detail:

I show you another example: Here is a 1956 Renault rear axle. You can see the hole drilled so the small oil leaks coming from the transmission -differential and gearbox, in this model the oil sump is common for both elements- comes out, and does not remain trapped inside, which if it happened, could cause oil to reach the brake area in the other side of the axle, which, for obvious reasons should not happen. You can see that in this hole there is also a small steel ring as a key to ensure that it does not clog (Renault 4CV, 1956).

Oil-collecting mat: In English classic cars (MG, Austin Healey, Jaguar) this situation is so common that there are suppliers that sell trays or mats to collect the oil under the car when it is parked.

https://www.limora.com/es/esterilla-antigoteo-de-aceite/355878/

What you see in the image below (on the right if you see it on a computer and below if you see it on a cell phone) is the “bell” of the gearbox of an MG: it has a small hole that is precisely to drain the oil coming out of the crankshaft, and prevent it from staining the clutch disc. This hole usually has a small plate (key) that, with its movement due to the vibration of the engine, prevents the hole from clogging and therefore could prevent the oil from escaping. You can see the general photo with the drainage hole on the right side of the photo (the drainage point is circled, click on the image).

What about the MOT inspection?

Well, as I said, the MOT inspection can be a problem. Please, note that the MOT technician has a procedure to follow. And in his/her procedure, if they inspect a vehicle which shows oil leak, they are obliged to issue an UNFAVORABLE/NON-PASSED report (regardless of their personal opinion, or no matter if they are are familiar with these types of cars and designs, which may or may not happen).

Possible options

Inspired by ideas that other users have put into practice, in some products that have become standard market ones for some models, and also in the engine low covers that come in modern cars, we have managed to solve the problem in a couple of vehicles with a solution as simple as collecting the oil in an integrated way in the vehicle, so avoid any dripping.

I invite you to watch part ii of this article .

I hope that our solution can help you and/or be useful for you as idea or starting point to elaborate your own one.

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Our new Renault 4CV

JG Classics Administrator — Thu, 29 Sep 2022 22:50:24 +0000

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Our new Renault 4CV:

We are preparing the start-up of our latest acquisition: A French Renault 4CV unit from 1958 (although the type of wheels could be from 1956). This is a SPORT model (of the three models SPORT, AFFAIRE, and GRAN LUXE), one of the last to be produced with “star” type rim wheels.

This unit was stopped for several years, although it was in an exceptional state of preservation. The bodywork was restored and repainted in a beautiful Bordeaux Red color.

This unit has the particular point to have slide roof from origin, something relatively rare to find.

Update April 2023: Renault 4CV completed. You can see it here

Conditioning 4CV

Today, a major overhaul/reconditioning is ongoing, which includes a general overhaul:

Cooling circuit: Renewal of the hoses, the radiator has been outstandingly repaired by our friends of Radiadores Soler in Sabadell, the water pump has been replaced and we have purchased the heating duct tubes to the interior of the passenger compartment.
Brakes: We have rectified drums, changed fluid, and revised all the hydraulics and condition of the calipers (This car has 4 drum brakes and no brake servo). The hand brake mechanism has been also overhauled, re-greased and re-tensioned .
Instrument panel: In the process of reconditioning.
Wheels: With the help of Llantacars in Malaga we have rectified, repaired, painted and lacquered the four wheels. Once we receive them, we will fit new tires.
Stabilizer bar: This vehicle has all the pre-assembly to put stabilizer bar in the front axle. But some units carried and some did not. From what we have seen in the Renault parts catalog for this model, some chassis number series appear not to carry it. However, we have found a set of connecting rods, silentblocs, and the bar itself, and after sandblasting it and repainting it, we will assemble the complete kit.

Painting of underbody, front/rear axle parts, underbody protection plates, exhaust pipe and manifolds (obviously with anti-caloric paint).
Replacement of the steering dust cap bellows and gear shift control rod (this car is an “all back” which has the gearbox, differential and engine in the rear).
Replacement of trims/arms/wiper blades.

Marchal 640 fog lamp. Renault 4CVs had a single fog lamp on the right side.

This model of headlight was used not only on the Renault 4CV, but also on several French cars, such as the Citröen Avant traction.

At the time of publication of this post, the mentioned jobs on the vehicle are in progress. We expect to have these completed in the next few weeks and have the car ready in early December 2022. We will keep you informed of the completion of the different phases in the coming weeks.

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