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My classic car leaks oil (iV). Renault Dauphine underbody protection – Center tray

JG Classics Administrator — Fri, 15 Sep 2023 01:19:00 +0000

My classic car leaks oil (iV)

Underbody protection for Renault Dauphine/Gordini: part 2: center plate

Underbody protection central area Renault Dauphine/Gordini

As the second part of the entry“part III” of“my classic car leaks oil” that we focused on the Renault Dauphine/Gordini, I present this one with the central protection plate.

As I told you in the above mentioned“part III“, the Renault Dauphine/Gordini has completely unprotected underbody at the rear. It is curious, because in fact there is a part that is protected as standard (in our photos you will see that it is painted silver (we painted it that way at the time). But the rear part (between the center of the chassis and the “engine-differential-gearbox” assembly) there is nothing. And all the cables, rods and controls between the engine and the cockpit pass through there (including the battery cable that goes to the starter motor, since in the Renault Dauphine, unlike the Renault 4CV, the battery goes in front).

Also in that area we have another oil plug susceptible to give some “moisture”. This is the one for the gearbox. It is certainly the least conflictive, and does not usually cause problems. But since the bass is protected, the plug is also protected.

Additionally: Attention to the crankcase gas vent.

Many oil “leakage” problems can come from engine breather problems. Especially prone to happen in engines that are several tens of years old. I invite you to additionally see this article where I talk about the problem and share with you our own experience. .

Installation of protection plates, easy disassembly, and periodic inspections

This is a point that may seem obvious, but is nevertheless worth mentioning: the fact that you protect the underbody of the car obviously does not mean that it is no longer necessary to check it :-). That is why these plates, if you notice, are very easy to remove and put on and all of them are fastened with bolts that are manipulated from one side only. So our recommendation is that periodically – for example during oil changes – you check the liquid collection trays, where, if there are any leaks, you will be able to see them directly by their presence in the foam collection areas that the plates have.

The central plate

It is attached to the underside at four points:

The rear part is attached to the same brackets that hold the front part of the back plate. See here for details.
At the front, it is anchored to the cross member in the center of the chassis by two rivet nuts, as I told you in the previous part of this post of Renault Dauphine, a small wonder that allows inserting female threads when you only have access from one side, and the best, with the possibility of large tightening if necessary, such is the firmness they acquire when installed.

Rivet nuts. For fastening bolts where you have access from one side only

Here is a video from a supplier of this type of material explaining the technology of rivet nuts (they also have them in male thread format, i.e. “rivet studs”).

The tool used in this video is a compressed air tool, but there is also a battery-powered screwdriver for about 70 euros (price in Spain in 2023), which gives the same result.

This video, as I said, is of a specific supplier of this type of material, but there are many suppliers of this type of material on the market, so you will have no problem finding one in your place of residence.

Center plate: Schematic and implementation

Without further ado, here is the diagram of the central plate. The general shape (contour) is made with the base of the real template, and as it has irregular shape, to fit the underbody and especially to pass around the gas tank. You can see that the schematic includes many measurements and dimensions so that you can make it yourself.

As the machining (cutting, drilling, bending) is manual, I suggest that you make a cardboard template that you can “present” at the installation site in order to make the necessary marks and adjustments so that the metal part will fit perfectly and without problems.

Renault Dauphine - Central underbody protection plate. Template and schematic

Click on the images to enlarge or download the templates.

I leave here scheme and templates of the central plate (click on the images and the brackets for anchoring in the area below the differential. Remember that here you have the details of the fixing of the brackets to the vehicle .

You can see here the final appearance of the planks once installed. After this overview, I show you below an image gallery with the different phases of preparation.

The plates, as in the other occasions, are structurally reinforced with riveted aluminum angle, which gives them rigidity (especially for this central plate which is considerably long) and provides a frame to house a foam to retain any liquid that may fall.

Renault Dauphine - Central underbody protection plate. Image gallery

Click on each image to enlarge and see description of the process.

This gallery of the central plate is more summarized than those in Part III because many of the details are common between them. Details that you can see in the sub-galleries of part III of this post. Anyway, I leave here three of the most relevant parts:

Anchorages in vehicle

Painting

Retaining foam

For the rest of the options specific to this central plate, you can click on the photos below to get an enlarged image and :

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My classic car leaks oil (iii). Underbody protection Renault Dauphine

JG Classics Administrator — Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:03:00 +0000

My classic car leaks oil (iii)

Underbody protection for Renault Dauphine

No drip: but we want to protect the underbody

We continue with the saga of the usual struggle of classic car owners with small oil leaks that are not serious but annoying and lead to regular debates in the technical car inspections (ITV in Spain). And besides, protecting the underbody of the car is always an option to consider.

We did a part I and a part II of “my classic car leaks oil”. At the time of publishing part II, we did not have in perspective more actions of this type, but finally we have created this part III in which we share with you the improvement works done on our Renault Dauphine Gordini. Basically, two reasons:

It is a 60-year-old car. And the oil plugs always ooze some moisture (I’ll explain why now). And we don’t want that moisture to mix with the dust in the environment making that typical accumulation of dirt so unpleasant.
It is an “all back” car, so there are a lot of wires, electrical and mechanical that “travel” along the underbody of the car. On the Renault Dauphine/Gordini, from the middle to the back it is all uncovered. And we do not want them to be permanently exposed to the elements (they have already spent many years in that situation and we do not want to prolong it any longer :-)).

Additionally: Attention to the crankcase gas vent.

It leaks oil no matter how hard you tighten the plug. One of the problems in older cars: the surface of the crankcase is "pitted".

I tighten the crankcase cap and it oozes: I change the gasket and tighten it more. It continues to ooze. What is happening?

This is one of the typical situations of old cars depending on the condition of the crankcase and/or plug: you change the oil, put a new copper washer-gasket, tighten it, everything seems to be OK, but after a few hours the plug is wet with oil. Reappraise a little. You think you have solved the problem, but after a few more hours the plug appears wet again. There comes a point where -whether or not you have the plug’s tightening specifications- your common sense tells you that you can’t tighten it any more, under penalty of damaging the plug’s thread, or even worse, the crankcase thread. What is happening to you? It is quite possible that the plug seat in the crankcase is “pitted”. Read on and I’ll tell you more.

As I was saying, our Renault Dauphine is a 60-year-old car (it will be 60 years old this year 2023, since it was built in 1963). The two drain plugs on the engine crankcase and gearbox appear slightly “sweaty”. Not dripping, but moist.

In this type of cars (not only in the Renault Dauphine we are talking about), crankcase and plug are parts with many years, so the flatness of the screw support (or of the plug screw itself) is not guaranteed at all. If the seat is conical, the situation is somewhat better, but not perfect. This is what many mechanics call “pitted metal”. The small animation above, which shows the correct state and the “chopped” state, can show you what I mean

In these plugs it is usual to use copper (or sometimes brass) gaskets. These base their tightness on the fact that when tightened and being made of a soft metal, they deform sufficiently to adapt to irregularities and seal the outlet. Both surfaces (plug and seat) are assumed to be flat and regular. So when tightened, the copper gasket deforms, filling the micro voids left in the contact between the plug-screw and its seat in the crankcase, ensuring the seal.

But if the plug (for which sometimes it is not obvious to find a spare part) or the crankcase seat are pitted, it happens that from a certain level of irregularity, the theoretical tightening to get the copper gasket to adapt to “seal”, is higher than what the thread can withstand: The plug has a maximum tightening and what we do not want is to “pass” the crankcase thread. The reasons are obvious because the costs in money, hours or difficulty to repair such a disaster are quite conceivable.

The two images I show you are the detail view of the previous animation. Here you will have been able to see better what I mean.

Teflon: Does it work? What about Loctite 55?

In the oil pan plugs, you can use – technically speaking, whether you like it or not :-)- plumbing Teflon. Teflon is a material that melts at a minimum of 200 degrees Celsius, and there are varieties that withstand up to 300 degrees Celsius. No car engine oil reaches that temperature, much less at the base of the crankcase where the oil temperature is no more than a few tens of degrees (60, 70, 80 degrees on average, or if you want to round up, to take a conservative estimate, consider 100 as a maximum). But me personally, there are times when in the case of oil, plumbing Teflon (which in fact is really designed for water) doesn’t quite work 100% – and I have to say that I have known mechanics who used it. In any case, the fact that the plumbing Teflon does not work is probably because the problem may be that it is designed to seal water and not oil. I have yet to try the Loctite 55 which ensures tightness in threads for various fluids. Someday I will try it and share the result with you. In any case, if you are interested, click here and you will find product information.

Other option: Semi-rigid nitrile rubber seals

You have yet another option: You can try (if you find the right size, which you almost certainly will) a type of semi-rigid flat gasket found in the industry. They are made of nitrile rubber, as I said, semi-rigid, which means that their deformation is controlled (more than the copper ones but less than the rubber ones) and they are impermeable to hydrocarbons, oils and even gases. As they are semi-rigid but not as hard as a copper plug, they can better adapt to deformities or roughness that may have appeared on the plug seat without having to tighten the plug screw so much. So with or without a copper gasket combination, you can still save the situation for a very economical price. I show you a link of one of them with your supplier .

https://es.rs-online.com/web/p/juntas-y-juntas-toricas/7960794

Protecting the underbody: reasons to do it

As a good “all back” car that it is, there are many cables, electrical and mechanical that “travel” along the underbody of the car. The speedometer line, electrical cables from the dynamo/regulator to the battery and frame. The throttle cable, the manual starter cable, in the case of our Dauphine, the vacuum hose for the fuel gauge, the clutch cable, the heating air hose, the handbrake cable, the shift rod, ….. And I’m sure I’m still missing some elements. In the particular case of the Renault Dauphine, these cables/rods are protected from the middle of the car forward. But from the middle to the back, they are uncovered. And it is not the best option: dust, dirt, water, mechanical aggressions (stones, curbs…).

As I already mentioned here: if in modern cars the underbody (and all its elements) are carefully protected and faired, why not do it in our classic cars, as far as possible?

Protecting the underbody of a classic car: Yes or no?

At this point we can enter again into the debate around purism/fidelity to the originals versus functionality. And once again, our opinion is that there are no “red lines” or absolute truths here. Everyone has their own point of view, and all are more than respectable. In my personal case, as I said in an entry on this WEB site, I prefer a reliable result to a result that is 100% true to reality. It is true that fairings on a bass can detract from the “authenticity” of the car. But on the one hand they are not visible, and on the other hand they are removable if properly installed. Moreover, following a similar logic, many cars of the 1960s ended their days literally devoured by corrosion and rust, but today anyone restoring a bodywork will not forego an anti-corrosion primer – the latest generation in paints – even if it does not belong to the original material of the car.

Protecting the underbody: implementation

With the Renault Dauphine we have produced two plates that go – describing it from the back to the front of the vehicle:

First plate: From the rear to the middle of the differential (a little before reaching the gearbox).
Second plate: from the gearbox to the front half of the car, just where the sheet metal plate starts, which is the car’s central protection series.

You can see later, in 9 commented image galleries, the details of the elaboration and installation, but I show you here some general views of the final aspect:

Renault Dauphine full underbody plate general view from behind

Renault Dauphine underbody rear view. Looking from behind the vehicle forward. In this image only the rear plate is installed.

Renault Dauphine central underbody panel. Complete installation as seen from the center of the car looking towards the rear of the vehicle.

Renault Dauphine central underbody panel. Complete installation as seen from the center of the car looking towards the rear of the vehicle (more general shot).

The plates, as in the other occasions, are structurally reinforced with riveted aluminum angle, which gives them rigidity (especially for the central plate which is considerably long) and provides a frame to house a foam to retain any liquid that may fall.

For the center plank, attachment to the center plank cross joist is done with a drill and what are called “rivet nuts”, a small wonder that I admit I have only relatively recently discovered, and which provide a very easy and affordable way to install a female nut in an area where you only have access from one side. And the most important thing: They can be given a significant tightening, much more than those of the “caged nuts”.

On this occasion, the fairings have been manufactured with 1.5 mm plate. Quite a bit thicker than previous cars (the Renault 4CV and the MGA which is 0.75mm thick). It is therefore somewhat more difficult to work with -especially when bending for folds-, but in exchange it is much more rigid, which is to be welcomed.

The following have been chosen for the fasteners

H-H studs for the rear side (also sometimes called “turrets”) with M6 thread
Two specially fabricated brackets are attached to two of the differential to crankcase bolts. You can unscrew them one by one to accommodate the two brackets and nothing will happen. The central fixation is shared between the back plate and the central plate. These brackets have a welded nut so that the screw can be threaded from bottom to top without having to worry about holding the female nut.
Two self-riveting nuts at the front for the center plate. They are very easy to find on the market and the device for riveting these nuts costs about 70 euros.

Rear tray and center tray

The project, therefore, as you have already seen in the general photos above, comprises two trays .

A rear one (covers the area of the crankshaft pulley, crankcase, and its junction with the differential).
A central which covers the rest of the differential, gearbox, gearbox control rod, clutch and throttle cables, and the entire center-rear area of the chassis. -This one can be found here –

In this particular post, I provide you with detailed photos of the entire process for the rear tray. I also give you information and measurements and dimensions for a Renault Dauphine. . They can serve as a reference, but I recommend that you build yourself a rigid cardboard template, which you can adjust and on which you can mark the holes and make corrections easily.

As the process is quite extensive, I have subdivided it into different sub-galleries of images so that you can read it more easily. You can click on the buttons at below to navigate from one to another.

The following gallery contains the information for the back plate. For the central plate, here you have the entry .

Renault Dauphine - Rear underbody protection plate. Image galleries

Click on the buttons below to go through the different stages of the process.

00 - Schematic diagram of plates and brackets for anchorage

01 - Initial preparation: cutting and drilling

02 - Angles and inner structural frame

03 - Mechanization completed

04 - Turrets and holes for plate fixing

05 - Painting. Priming and lacquering

06 - Prepare under vehicle anchorages

07 - Oil collecting foam packaging

08 - Final installation on the vehicle

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Renault Dauphine braking shudder. Correct shoes

JG Classics Administrator — Sun, 02 Apr 2023 18:23:10 +0000

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The car shakes when braking (Renault Dauphine)

The situation: Renault Dauphine was shaking under braking.

The mystery of the shakes when braking seems close to being solved. The car didn’t brake badly (considering what can be expected from this vehicle), but it was shaky when braking, especially at the end of the pedal way. It was not a serious situation – it was not even detected in the ITV – but it was uncomfortable.

Diagnosis

A few days ago I discovered that the brake shoes are 30mm wide (first Dauphine model) while the drums in this unit accept 35mm wide brake shoes (second Dauphine version). I was able to verify this based on documentation I found comparing the width of the drum “track” Vs the size of the brake shoes. In fact, a part of the inner “track” of the drum is clearly unused (unfortunately, I have no pictures of them, because the drums have already been through the grinding shop machine).

In the following photos, the 30mm brake shoes are still mounted. You can see the gap they have at the bottom (see in the pictures the circles marked in red, click on the image to see it in detail). One of them shows how it can be moved with a screwdriver “in” and “out”. This gap-displacement, which is very easy to imitate with a screwdriver, is expected to happen when the cylinder pushes the brake shoes. Besides that, as I mentioned, the drum had (prior to grinding) a part of the track that has no shoe scuff mark.

The solution

I have been able to locate 35mm wide brake shoes at CIPERE (a Franco-German supplier). Additionally, the drums have been delivered to the shop for grinding (fortunately still within the tolerance margins stablihed by Renault for the Dauphine’s which is 229.2 mm for the maximum internal diameter after grinding).

I will mount in a few days the new brake shoes and repaired drums. I am almost convinced that the larger contact surface, the brake shoes of the correct width, and the repaired drums will improve braking dramatically and the problem will be solved. I actually had this experience in another car a few years ago.

Where to buy them?

New brake shoes can be found at CIPERE. They are not very cheap, but it is true that there are not many alternatives. For the Dauphine, brake shoe linings are available, but complete brake shoes are not easy to find (contrary to the Renault 4CV where complete brake shoes are very easy to find from several suppliers). Click the link below if you want to go to the product (or here).

https://www.cipere.fr/fr/Renault/Alle/Vorderradbremse-ohne-Hydraulikteile/ANR84226/

This is a situation I have encountered on many old classics: Poor maintenance that was done to classic cars many years back and once discovered, and resolved, causes the situation to be fixed almost by itself. In future posts I will tell you as an example about the OVERDRIVE of an MGB that came back to life with only proper maintenance.

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Classic car USB connector

JG Classics Administrator — Tue, 28 Mar 2023 22:40:45 +0000

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Classic car USB connector

Occasionally we need to have to connect some small device inside our classic car. It can be a socket for charging a phone, a portable GPS, or any (semi)permanently installed device.

Nowadays, many of these devices come with a USB cable that is used to power the unit. USB (acronym for Universal Serial Bus) is an interface that was designed a few years ago to transmit data between devices quickly and capable of supporting connections/disconnections while the devices are still running.

In addition to this functionality, the USB connectors incorporate a permanent 5V signal between pins 1 and 4. This means that from the 4 USB pins, the two in the middle are data (signal and ground) and the two at the end are permanent 5V.

The type of USB connector we probably don't want/can't have on our classic

The fact that this type of connector has become a standard, and the need to make things cheaper, means that a large number of low-voltage devices do not have their own power supply and are therefore designed to be powered through a USB socket (which, let’s say everything, also has the advantage that we have finally have get rid of the endless number of power supplies that each gadget came with and that where quite a nightmare).

The small problem with our classics is that there is something that – in general – we don’t want: we don’t want a cigarette lighter connector or similar inside the passenger compartment (for aesthetic reasons).

To avoid this, there are still adapters in the form of a small box that can be discreetly installed inside. But they also have an aesthetic problem: The USB outlets are aerial, so it is difficult to integrate them somewhere inside the car without being visible. I am referring to a device like this one:

But apart from the aesthetics, there is something else: if our classic car has a 6V electrical installation, 99.9% of these adapters work only at 12V input. So cars with 6V electrical installation are left out..

In my case, I needed to install a small speedometer on my Renault 4CV. There are some models that are very small, operate by GPS and, if installed properly, can be hidden, “removable”, or in a discreet place that is only visible to the driver and does not detract from the interior of the vehicle. In the case of the 4CV, the need came to have something more accurate than the speedometer on the dashboard, which, despite having changed the cable from the gearbox to the instrument, has a certain inaccuracy.

A USB power supply with input between 5 and 24V on a 2.5 cm board.

Well, we finally located this little wonderful product: It is a mini circuit (measuring 2.5cmx1.5 cm) with USB socket and the best of all: it supports any voltage input between 5 and 24V, delivering 5V stabilized to the USB output.

The best thing: the price. As of the date of this article (March 2023) the device costs 0.68 euros + shipping (calculate between 1 and 2 euros for shipping).

In my case, the tests I have done on it have been satisfactory. These are the ones I have made:

Powering the above speedometer: one quarter ampere of consumption in the maximum case.
Powering a cell phone in fast charge: 0.5 Amps if the device received 12V input. And about one ampere if it received 6V.
Change the input voltage (I tested it with a lab power supply) to see the circuit was able to keep the output of the usb connector stable: as far as I have tested, between 5 and 15V the device still provides stable signal. Below 5V input, the device does not work and does not deliver signal to the output. But in the mentioned range, I have been able to prove that it works (I insist : changing the voltage in real time).
in real time
without disconnecting anything)

These photos are the monitor of a laboratory power supply that has been used to test the circuit by simulating different input voltages. The voltage (in yellow at the bottom left of the source display) is the input voltage to the power supply. The amps read at the bottom right of the source display is the current passing through depending on the load of the connected USB device. In the case of the 0.05 amp consumption, it is the small GPS speedometer (in standby configuration, it will probably consume a little more in operation). The following with half and one ampere of consumption respectively correspond to a cell phone in fast charge feeding the adapter with 6 and 12 volts respectively.

As I mentioned, we were able to verify that the device is tolerant to changes in input voltage, even sudden changes, without impacting the stability of the output signal. We also verified that up to 5V the input signal can be lowered without affecting operation. At less than 5V input, it stops. In any case, this adapter is NOT a DC booster. So if what you need is a direct current booster (for example, the classic 6V to 12V),
you can have a look at this entry

Where to buy it?

I found it on Aliexpress. It is obviously not the only supplier. But at least here you can find it in the following links:

On Aliexpress, under item number 1005005219811934
On Aliexpress, Under the description (you will get many items, this one among them): DC USB output charger 6-24V 12V/24v to 5V,
In this
link

Conclusion

Indeed, the miniaturization of electronics and the industrialization of manufacturing processes have made it possible to create devices with these features, of this size and at this price. A few years ago, such a stabilizer would have cost much more (probably 100 times the amount this one is worth) and in a much larger size. Think that we are talking about a board measuring 2.5cm long by 1.5cm wide that already includes the USB connector and costs less than one euro.

Due to the compact design, it can be installed anywhere in the passenger compartment and made invisible. It is up to the discretion of each person to find a place where the device is fixed and only the USB connection is visible.

One last comment: I have mentioned it several times here as “the device” but in reality it is not: it’s rather a circuit. So I would personally recommend that you either install it in a small box, or if that is not possible, you can drop a “turret” connector on the input connectors (the connectors are directly on the “top” of the printed circuit board, as you can see in the pictures) so you can either remove/replace it or attach it to a more mechanically sound installation.

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12V accessories in cars with 6 Volt installation

JG Classics Administrator — Fri, 07 Oct 2022 16:37:19 +0000

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12V accessories in cars with 6 Volt installation

And which converter to use to make them work smoothly:

Many of the vehicles manufactured before 1965 were equipped with a 6V electrical system. This includes many of the VW Beetle, the Renault 4CV, the first Citröen 2CV, the first series of the Renault Dauphine/Gordini and a list that gets bigger the further back in time you go. Even many of the English roadsters of that time, although they had a 12V installation (such as the MGA), this was achieved by mounting two 6V batteries in series.

In the event that you are the lucky owner of a classic car that comes equipped with a 6V installation, you may find yourself in the position of having to install an automotive accessory, which, perhaps, will operate at 12V. Some people goes for the project of converting the entire system of the vehicle to 12V, but perhaps you may not have the time, the opportunity, or simply the desire to do it.

The case I describe here happened to us with our Renault Dauphine Gordini. It is a 1963 unit manufactured by FASA-Spain, and was probably one of the last manufactured 6V cars of this model. To this unit, we installed the Blaupunkt Essen radio featured in this article. It is worth mentioning that there are radios from this period (approx. 1960-65) from brands such as Blaupunkt, Becker, and others, with voltage selector 6-12V as well as polarity selection for GROUND (ground)=NEG or GROUND(ground)=POS. But on this occasion, this 12V and negative-ground model was the one we were able to find.

The first test

For the radio installation, we tested with one of these compact devices found as “DC-DC 6V->12V converter” (or similar description). Something similar to this:

The result could not have been more dissapointing: The radio (still installed outside the car) generated a noise similar to the one of AC current, at such a high level that it completely masked the audio in the reception, -literally making it impossible to use-.

In reality, by the nature of their operation/design, these DC Boosters are native generators of electrical noise (somewhat similar to switching power supplies). So if what you want to power is a device that is not sensitive to electrical noise (e.g., a set of lamps, headlights, or the like), you will have no problem. But if you want to power something so sensitive to electrical noise as a radio, then you may have problems.

In our case, we did all possible tests: shielding the entire installation, testing different types and ground connections, installing anti-parasites in the power supply, and all the changes and tests we could think of: No improvement. In fact, I remember looking at the output signal of the converter through an oscilloscope and seeing that it was far from the flat signal you could expecte from a DC battery.

If you are interested in the subject, you can read this article about the noise associated with DC-DC boosters.

The solution

We found the solution on a Renault Dauphine forum in France. One of the forum members was talking about a STATRON® brand converter which worked very well. Since all the tests with the previous models of converters (several were tested) had not been successful, and on the other hand had been made in the Blaupunkt radio a significant investment in restoration by the company. Chrome London we didn’t want to lose, we decided to buy this converter. This is the device:

We installed it on our Dauphine to power both the car radio and two additional instruments installed on the dashboard (with their corresponding lighting). The result: Zero noise from parasites. Problem solved

You can buy it at AMAZON in Germany. It is around 100 Euros (at the date of publication of this post). At least for Spain, there is no shipping problem.

Installation:

In our Dauphine, the device is installed behind the glove box, on the passenger side. So that it is completely invisible. In this photo neither the inlet nor the outlet are connected yet. The device allows devices connected to the 12V output to use the same car ground without problems (I mention this because I had seen some converters that recommended NOT sharing the input negative with the output negative, making it quite complicated to use in a car).

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